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СообщениеДобавлено: 29 июн 2014 19:32:01 
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To add to the list, a little update regarding the Spaso-.... monasteries (including the Spaso-Yakovlevsky which I have already written about in the previous post): Not contended about the wikipedia translation of the mentioned one, I tried to find most accurate and at the same time easy to understand construction. I finally found it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monastery_ ... _Euthymius

Novospassky Monastery - > New monastery of the Saviour
Spaso-Evfrosinevsky Monastery - > Saviour monastery of St. Euphrosine
Spaso-Yakovlevsky Monastery - > Saviour monastery of St. Jacob
Spaso-Evfimievskii Monastery - > Saviour monastery of St. Euthymius
Spaso-Borodinsky Monastery - > Borodino monastery of the Saviour
Spaso-Preobrazhenskii - > Saviour monastery of Transfiguration

Unrelated:
Aleksandro-Svirskii Monastery - > Monastery of St. Alexander of Svir
Kirillo-Belozerskii Monastery - > Monastery of St. Cyril of Beloozero
Feodor Stratilat Monastery - > Monastery of St. Theodore Stratelates
Rizpolozhensky Monastery - > Monastery of the Deposition
Avraamiy - > Abraham and Avraamievskii Monastery - > Monastery of St. Abraham


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СообщениеДобавлено: 18 июл 2014 14:14:14 
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The focus of this shorter part of the post is to root mistakes alike the Bogau-Wogau factory.

Ludvigstain -> Ludwigstein
Gelborn -> Hellborn
Stenbok-Fermor -> Stenbock-Fermor
_________________________________
As I noted earlier, I also devoted some time to adjectives.
Kurd woman -> Kurdish woman, as it is adjective, not demonym

While I am well aware how the English language often uses rather irregular adjectives of place names, usually based on the name in original language or latin (Parisian, Neapolitan, Muscovite), there still seems to be variations in the use on this great website.

Luga - Luzhsky on the photos themselves (or more often the postcards in this case) but Luga in the geographical list. Then there is Novoladozhsky and Tsarskoe Selo. But do not worry! Wikipedia, as probably the most reliable source (usually anyway) is very confused about the issue as well (besides Luzhsky district also having an article, Novgorod oblast, while there exists an adjective form Novgorodian).


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СообщениеДобавлено: 18 июл 2014 15:29:09 
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Filip писал(а):
The focus of this shorter part of the post is to root mistakes alike the Bogau-Wogau factory.

Ludvigstain -> Ludwigstein
Gelborn -> Hellborn
Stenbok-Fermor -> Stenbock-Fermor
_________________________________
As I noted earlier, I also devoted some time to adjectives.
Kurd woman -> Kurdish woman, as it is adjective, not demonym

While I am well aware how the English language often uses rather irregular adjectives of place names, usually based on the name in original language or latin (Parisian, Neapolitan, Muscovite), there still seems to be variations in the use on this great website.

Luga - Luzhsky on the photos themselves (or more often the postcards in this case) but Luga in the geographical list. Then there is Novoladozhsky and Tsarskoe Selo. But do not worry! Wikipedia, as probably the most reliable source (usually anyway) is very confused about the issue as well (besides Luzhsky district also having an article, Novgorod oblast, while there exists an adjective form Novgorodian).


Thank you, Filip!

I have corrected almost all, but there is some doubt as to Gelborn -> Hellborn. Both surnames are known in Europe. Why do you think Hellborn is preferable?


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СообщениеДобавлено: 18 июл 2014 21:21:26 
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Thank you, Vyacheslav, for doubting me, because the final result is different from both of our expectations. The true name of the Swedish factory owner was Эмиль Данилович Гейльборн. That was confirmed when I found (after adding back yer to the end of the name) this catalogue of factories in the empire:
http://istmat.info/files/uploads/26498/ ... 1912_6.pdf

Цитата:
Гейльборнъ, Эмріл. Данил., шведск. под. Фабр. шведск.
картона «Надежда». Вытегорск. у.э бл. дер. Матуш-
іш. Дееятины. Выраб. картонъ изъ древесн. массы.
Год. произв. показано въ свѣдѣніяхъ по Бѣлору-
чейск. #абр. Двиг. пар., вод. и .газ. съ ч. с. 940.
Чис. раб. 93

Гейльборнъ, Эмил. Данил., шведск. под. Фабр. шведск.
картона «Бѣл. Ручей». Вытегорск. у., Девятинск.
вол., бл. с. Девятинъ, у дер. «Бѣлый Ручей». Девя-
тинъ. Выраб. картонъ изъ древесн. массы. Год.
произв. 127,566 р. Двиг. пар. и вод. съ ч. с. 210.
Чис. раб. 65.


Then I decided to find Heilborns. I found one that is hardly a coincidence: A Swede, Emil Heilborn, born in 1900 in SPB, engineer and photographer. I am tempted to say son, but family member almost surely.

EDIT: By a weird coincidence the post appeared twice, so I deleted the older one.


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СообщениеДобавлено: 19 июл 2014 05:41:27 
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Thank you once again, Filip! I have corrected the caption for Heilborn.


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СообщениеДобавлено: 19 июл 2014 16:50:56 
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As always, glad to be of service!

Now I tried to to tackle some of the personal names.
-Nazar Magomet could potentially change to Muhammad (as is the name of the emir of Bukhara in Uzbek), but it is optional. With the wide range of variants (persian Mohammad could as well be a possibility) and the diferences between Uzbeks, Sarts and other ethnics, one cannot state this or that variant as definite.
-I planned to check more Bukharan names, but instead the rest of the time was spent with quite a riddle: How to correctly render the name of the Chinese master Lau? First of all I managed to find bilingual article, where I found his original name, 刘峻周 in simplified, 劉峻周 in the traditional Chinese.

That opened the possibility of transliteration using the standard modern method pinyin. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_Chinese_in_Russia
In English it is Liu Junzhou
In Russian Лю Цзюньчжоу

Now, it does sound a bit different, which I suppose is because what is above is Mandarin Chinese. Lau probably introduced in his native Cantonese.
Cantonese transliterated pronunciation - Lau Jeunjau

Edited the message - added further information about the first issue.


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СообщениеДобавлено: 17 авг 2014 13:10:11 
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Another chapter for correction are the Finnish (or Finnic in general, considering Karelian, Veps, etc.) names. I would like to mention, that this is in no way some sort of hidden chauvinism, only an attempt on correct transliteration, as can be observed in periodic maps from the grand duchy (Kartbok öfver Finland, Helsingfors 1909). And especially in Karelia, one can understand the modified names (Kyappeselga) would be similiar to for example Borzhom, so my suggestions are optional.

-Just a small typo, Castle in Nyslott [Savonlinna}
-When there is a Swedish name, there is usually a modern Finnish one in brackets as well, except in Olofsborg-Olavinlinna, that is optional though
-Kaukjarvi -> Kaukjärvi
-Iustilia seems to be neologism invented by LoC, I have yet to see instance of it anywhere. Therefore Juustila
-The Raivolo-Raivola problem is quite interesting, as except for the postcard I have not seen "o" anywhere. But after all, Kobona was called Kobono in some periods as well.
-Ва́ммелсуу was, as one can read in the notes, the pre-1948 name for what is today Serovo (the site of the here mentioned villa of Andreyev), would it perhaps deserve its own geographical entry? The river itself is Vammeljoki in Finnish.
-Metsakyla -> Metsäkylä
-Girvas -> Hirvas
-Кяппесельга -> Käppäselkä
- Ilemselga -> Ilomselkä
- While there was some Finnish name of Vikshitsa, I suppose it is of Slavic origin. Same with Shuya, Kondopoga, etc.
- Maselgskaja - > Maaselkä
- Regarding Segezh[a], there is an evidence, that at least the river was without "a" in some archaic sources:
Островъ этотъ начинаетъ собою цѣлую цѣпь скалистыхъ острововъ, тянущихся вдоль сѣвернаго берега Сегозера до истока рѣки Сегежъ...
-One big unknown is Kukirjagi/Kukerjagi/even Kukorjagi.


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СообщениеДобавлено: 17 авг 2014 14:48:45 
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Filip писал(а):
Another chapter for correction are the Finnish (or Finnic in general, considering Karelian, Veps, etc.) names. I would like to mention, that this is in no way some sort of hidden chauvinism, only an attempt on correct transliteration, as can be observed in periodic maps from the grand duchy (Kartbok öfver Finland, Helsingfors 1909). And especially in Karelia, one can understand the modified names (Kyappeselga) would be similiar to for example Borzhom, so my suggestions are optional.

-Just a small typo, Castle in Nyslott [Savonlinna}
-When there is a Swedish name, there is usually a modern Finnish one in brackets as well, except in Olofsborg-Olavinlinna, that is optional though
-Kaukjarvi -> Kaukjärvi
-Iustilia seems to be neologism invented by LoC, I have yet to see instance of it anywhere. Therefore Juustila
-The Raivolo-Raivola problem is quite interesting, as except for the postcard I have not seen "o" anywhere. But after all, Kobona was called Kobono in some periods as well.
-Ва́ммелсуу was, as one can read in the notes, the pre-1948 name for what is today Serovo (the site of the here mentioned villa of Andreyev), would it perhaps deserve its own geographical entry? The river itself is Vammeljoki in Finnish.
-Metsakyla -> Metsäkylä
-Girvas -> Hirvas
-Кяппесельга -> Käppäselkä
- Ilemselga -> Ilomselkä
- While there was some Finnish name of Vikshitsa, I suppose it is of Slavic origin. Same with Shuya, Kondopoga, etc.
- Maselgskaja - > Maaselkä
- Regarding Segezh[a], there is an evidence, that at least the river was without "a" in some archaic sources:
Островъ этотъ начинаетъ собою цѣлую цѣпь скалистыхъ острововъ, тянущихся вдоль сѣвернаго берега Сегозера до истока рѣки Сегежъ...
-One big unknown is Kukirjagi/Kukerjagi/even Kukorjagi.


Thank you very much, Filip!

I will make corrections.
I some instances it would be better IMHO to provide original names with English transliteration: "Near the village of Iustilia [i.e. Juustila], on the Saimaa Canal".


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СообщениеДобавлено: 19 авг 2014 15:54:56 
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Hi again, Filip!

I was thinking over your suggestions.
To my surprise English Wiki supports geographical names in its original Latin alphabet wording, not in English one. For example, Kohtla-Järve (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohtla-J%C3%A4rve)
But I still have some doubt on using "exotic" letters like "ä", that are absent on ordinary keyboard. It may be really confusing for most of people who have no idea on the pronunсiation.
As to Karelian names I think it is better to give English transliteration in Russified form.


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СообщениеДобавлено: 20 авг 2014 12:49:49 
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Thank you for sharing your opinion and thoughts, Vyacheslav!

This, even if in the end might be seldom noticed by visitors, is definitely quite difficult issue. I have always based my research on two main principles:
-The transliteration has to be accurate with conventions of the time period (for the 1913 list).
Classic examples are Tiflis, Gagry, Borzhom, etc.
-As I suppose everyone who uses exclusively the English version of the website cannot speak Russian, when using Google it should be able to find some results. Since some of the places are really remote or abandoned, this is perhaps bit idealistic, but at the same time the task to create the information tabs is quite gigantic (though I do have some ideas I would like to share once they are somewhat refined).
Example: Bogoeddin finds only sites related to our master. Baha-ud-Din Naqshband Bukhari finds the Sufi scholar. I suppose [i.e.] is the ideal solution.

Regarding the first rule, I tried to find periodic maps of the Grand Duchy.
Most detailed is this one (23 Mb, I can recommend downloading it rather than viewing it directly in browser)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... d_1826.jpg
We can see overwhelming Swedish influence, of course Helsingfors, but also Fredrikshamn, Kexholm etc. When there is truly Finnish name, it is kept with special characters including the prominent ä (disregarding archaic transliteration such as W instead of V). Interesting detail, Saimaa lake was called Saima, same as the French translation on the postcard.

It is also important to note, that tradition and even changing attitude can play a role in the decisions. While it would be logical that transliterations which were adapted, but unchanged (Kexholm-Keksgolm, Helsingfors-Gelsin'fors), Shlisselburg is most common transliteration nowadays (except in German), so far every atlas before revolution wrote Schlüsselburg.

Here is the only real example of place in Karelia:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... o_1908.png
A page from the before mentioned publication printed in Helsingfors in 1909. Significant is especially Pitkäranta. Worth mentioning is Vidlitsa as Vitele and on the other hand, Gorskoe, which originally confused me considering the time period, but it seems it is not the same village as Нахкурила (since 1948 Gorskoe as well)

Considering the first one is bilingual and the second was definitely controlled by censors, I think I can dismiss any notion of nationalism in both works.

In the end, I can potentionally imagine the transliteration as suggested in the 1913 list, based on this plan.
a)Modern day Finland is flawless as it is now.
-Geographic list with Finnish names in the actual list
-Geographic list with Swedish (when used) and Finnish names in the 1913 list
b)Karelia and Vyborg area
-Actual list is fine (Russian or Russified names)
-1913 list with original names with one example of Swedish (I do not think it really matters whether Vyborg or Viborg) and the rest Finnish.


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